Obey Him or THEM that have the rule? A closer look.

Heb 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.

This is one of the most abused New Testament verses in scripture.
Let's take a closer look at what it says... I ask you to read and be patient, this more than likely has some precepts never heard of or seen by most Christians. 

"Obey THEM", "submit to THEM", "THEY watch for your souls",  "THEY shall give account", "THEY may do it with joy".....


1 . notice:  the plural, and also that it does not say "obey the pastor".
     Do you see the words "them, they, they, they"?

Why is it plural? 
Can we find ANY scripture for one man in sole authority over a church?  Well, sort of, but in a negative way. 
3John mentions "Diotrephes who loves to have the PRE-EMMINENCE" and refused the apostles. He was one who loved the position and control of an assembly.

Now see what the church in Acts established for overseers of the churches they planted

Here is what the early church established for the "local" assemblies:
(notice:  there is no "church Board" "General Board", "Arch-bishops", or other spurious and man made "offices".)


Acts 14:23 And when they had appointed for them elders in every church,
                     and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord.... 
                     Where is a Titled pastor appointed?
Titus 1:5    For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest
                   set in order the things that are wanting, and
                   ordain elders in every city,  as I had appointed thee: 
                   They ordained "elders", not titled "pastors".
 Acts 15:6   And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this
                     matter.    (where were the pastors at this "conference"?)
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus Paul sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders of the church.    (why didn't he say "pastors"???)

Church Government in Acts.

 Acts 15:2 ... Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto
                       the apostles and elders about this question.
 Acts 15:4 ... they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders,
                        and they declared all things that God had done with them.
 Acts 15:6      And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
                       (Notice: it does not say apostles and pastors..)  Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church,
                     ...chief men among the brethren:
 Acts 15:23 ... The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto
                         the brethren of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
 Acts 16:4 ...they delivered them the decrees for to keep,
                     that were ordained of the apostles and elders  (plural) 
                     which were at Jerusalem.
 Acts 20:28  "feed the flock of God over which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers"  (plural)

1Tim 5:17   Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labour in the word
                     and doctrine.   (plural-plural)
Titus 1:5  .. that you should set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders  (PLURAL) in every city, as I had appointed you to do: 
-Paul commanded, "elders in >>every<< city",  i.e. with no mention of titled Pastors or a "Senior Pastor". You may see that this instruction is reflected in Paul and the Ephesian elders in Acts 20, and by the church epistles, because there are no specialized "Senior Pastors", Chief Rulers, Priests, Popes, Bishops, or the like even mentioned once as a Titled church official. (Except Diotrephes in 3John as a negative.

"elder Peter" , an apostle wrote in 1Peter 5:1
      The elders among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder (Peter),
     and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory......
2   Tend the flock of God which is among you (not under you), exercising the oversight, not by force (i.e. not because it is your job obligation),
     but willingly, according to the will of God; not for filthy lucre (not as a hierling) , but of a ready mind;
3   neither as lording it over the stewardship allotted to you, but making yourselves examples to
     the flock. ("lording" means to subjugate, dominate, overcome)

The church/ pastor/ priest/ board/ elders/ bishop/ district/ denomination is not right when they are wrong, but if you have One Man, or one family "running" the local church, the door to error, sin, abuse, manipulation, and plundering of the sheep is wide open.

Having "the rule" over you does NOT give them authority to tell you where you can go, who you should marry, pay them an unscriptural tithe, what kind of clothes you can wear, or anything that "goes beyond that which is written" as Paul commanded. (1Cor 4:6), "less one become puffed up against the other". 

If the pastor was to be the head of a church, then why is the word pastor never used in the epistles to the churches?  "Pastors" and shepherd's are used once with warning in terms of those who "feed themselves" and run after a ministry for hire and reward.
11 For they (shepherds) have gone in the way of Cain and have run greedily after the error of Balaam for their reward ...
12 These are spots on your feasts of charity when they feast with you,
     feeding themselves without fear.
     

Notice in 1Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 

And Ephesians  4:11 is the single reference to "pastors" in the New Testament. 

Have we "puffed up" the office of the pastor? Many churches turned him into either a king, or God's primary way to speak to us.

But  the church is to have only ONE Head. His name is Pastor Jesus.1Corinthians 11:3
 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ;   and the head of the woman is the man;   and the head of Christ is God.


That is God's order and if a pastor takes headship-authority over an assembly, he is in danger of usurping God's authority, and many people will make an idol of him.

Which is also a good reason for following Jesus' instruction not to take titles and the "high seats" in the synagogues (churches).
-as it is written and may now make sense to you.
Mat. 23: 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren.
              9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in
                  heaven.
             10  Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ.

What about "the office of a bishop"?
1st Timothy 3:1  Faithful is the saying, If a man seeks the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.


The "office of a bishop" is one word in the Greek, and simply means "overseer".
   it is defined as:
investigation, inspection, visitation,
that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men,
 in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad.
oversight.  overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder .

In Hebrews 13:17, to  "obey" from the Greek, Strongs *3982 means :
   to arrange under, to subordinate, to subject, put in subjection, to subject one's self,
   obey to submit to one's control, to yield to one's admonition or advice, be subject.

We are to obey the scripture, and if a man goes "beyond that which is written", we are under no obligation to do what he orders. And if a man or woman goes beyond what is written, he or she is in danger of being in rebellion for corrupting the Word of God.
"Obey THEM", "submit to THEM", "THEY watch for your souls", "THEY shall give account", "THEY may do it with joy"..

Is it coincidence there are 5 plural nouns in the above verse?

Who are the "they" in the church of scripture?

Some call it the five gifts of ministry oversight that God freely gave His people, in Ephesians 4:11.
And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12  for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

NONE of those "gifts" is given superiority over the other. They together form the "overseers" and "elders" that have "the rule over you".

The reason that many suffer, have been abused, discouraged, hurt, robbed,
and mis-led is because of many that have perverted Hebrews 13:17 into a "pastor-rules" one-man-show. 

This is the "Nicolaitane error" and "deeds" that Jesus said he "hates" in Revelation chapter 2, and pray for us elders as pastors that we do not become "lords over God's heritage" as we feed the flock.

As an elder in the body of Christ, I personally do not care to be called by any title, including "Elder".  "for ye are brethren" as Jesus said. 

Loren Adkins stated:

What I find funny is the translators used the harshest wording here. -Using the word obey over other words that could have been used. I might not think to harsh about this had I not looked at other passages that use the word obey , such as “Children obey you parents”

Eph 6:1 Children, obey G5219 your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

*G5219  hupakouō: to hear (as a subordinate), to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

                       These are two entirely different Greek words and meanings.

To further run this thought out I cannot find any passage of scripture where God directly commands his children at any point to follow a man. He gives and calls men to lead, but he does not command those even to dictate over his children.

Having come across the the definition of the word persuade in Heb 13, I realized I could not be in rebellion if I was not persuaded of something.

Therefore the teaching that so many preachers used that if I did not obey them I was in rebellion; and God hated rebellion, so I was hell bent. It did not apply to me or any one else for that matter as one could not be in rebellion to something they did not agree with.
What really bothers me is this idea built upon this verse (from my view anyway) that we must all be accountable to someone higher, ie saints, teachers, pastors and so on.
Paul teaches us in Ephesians God's plan for his kingdom and the accountability we are to have is to him.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
As we read this chapter nowhere does Paul teach we are to be accountable to anyone other than him.

Using Hebrews 13:17 as a rod to keep subjects in line is completely adding to the word of God.  -LA

Summary:

Again, the Greek word harshly translated into "obey" by the KJV, is:

G3982 πείθω peithō pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false);
by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

Again, compare that to "children obey your parents...
*G5219  hupakouō: to hear (as a subordinate), to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

We are not trying to offend pastors or church leaders, but those that are usurping command and control over others in the name of God do so at great harm to others (church abuse), and themselves.

This is the truth of God's Word and each of us is called to humble ourselves to it...It is not the way of the man made church organizations but it is what Jesus and His apostles taught.

Who is Qualified to Oversee A Church according to GOD?

Who is Qualified to Oversee A Church according to GOD?

1st Timothy 3:1 Faithful is the saying, If a man desires the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.

A "bishop" is defined by the scriptures as an "overseer", and is one who watches over the "called out ones".

But the modern church has perverted the term "bishop" into a titled "Bishop" position in an ecclesiastical structure unknown in scripture.
We will see the apostles never ordained solo pastors or a priest over the churches.

 The responsibility of an overseer is to watch over, protect, and feed the flock of God. 
Sad to say that today most "elders" are yes-men to a pastor and the "sheep" are meat for their table. The sheep are rarely defended but the wolves and hirelings usually are.

1  Faithful is the saying, If a man seeks the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
     (bishop means simply  "overseer")
2   The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, orderly, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3   no brawler, no striker; but gentle, not contentious, no lover of money;
4   one that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5   (but if a man does not know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6   not a novice, lest being puffed up he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7   Moreover he must have good testimony from them that are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 1Tim. 3:1-7

There are twelve masculine nouns and pronouns in that passage. There are no feminine nouns.

In Titus 1, he wrote a second time regarding elders:
 Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that you should set in order the things needed, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed you:

The qualifications for those elders that are to be the "overseers" of the churches:
6)   if any man is blameless, husband of one wife, having children that believe  not accused of riot or unruly.
7)   For the bishop must be blameless, as God`s steward; not self-willed, not soon angry, no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre;
8)   but given to hospitality, as lover of good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled;
9)   holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict the opposers.

1Peter 5
1)   The elders among you I who am a fellow-elder exhort, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2)   Tend the flock  (i.e. feed the  flock) of God which is among you, exercising oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3)   neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock.

Although this may upset a few people, the most often repeated qualification begins with the nouns "man" and "he", a total of 14 times.  11 are in 1Timothy and 3 more in Titus.  

Masculine nouns are used repeatedly in multiple verses and is the first qualification specified and is referenced 14x times.

The noun for the office itself "bishop", Greek "episkopos", is also a masculine noun. (Strongs 1985). 

So when the Scriptures speak in terms of the office of an overseer and the elders that rule, it always does so with men. Even the word "pastor" ("poimen" in Greek), is a masculine noun, and there is no such thing as a wife being "co-pastor" or "pastor" over an assembly.

Having swallowed the "red pill" of truth from the Word, let us look at the points Paul gave in 1Timothy 3.
In our 24 years of church involvement and leadership, we never heard these taught or reviewed in regard to the people who were appointed or put in places of leadership.

This is example of how the church departs from scripture as church leaders are usually those who demonstrate loyalty, financial support, natural gifts for speaking, or a willingness to support and volunteer.Pastors are hired.

We also see that among the elders that minister, no one office such as the pastor, prophet, or apostle, is given pre-eminence above the rest. Notice that no titles are mentioned for those exercising oversight of the churches in these qualifications which apply equally to all ministries and the elders. 

QUALIFICATIONS IN 1Timothy 3

1.   without reproach:  not open to censure, irreproachable. He is honest and his word and motive is good. He is not hiding any sin.  

2.   Husband of one wife: He is a "husband" of one wife. He does not divorce and remarry another, unless the first wife committed adultery,  or she died.

3.   temperate; sober, not given to alcoholic drinks and not a food glutton.

4.   sober-minded: curbing one's desires and impulses, self-controlled, temperate, prudent , sensible

5    orderly:  well arranged, seemly, modest. This speaks of his life not being disorderly or out of control.  

6.   given to hospitality:  He is hospitable and generous to guests. Their home is made comfortable to others and they are made to feel welcome.

7.   able to teach: He is apt and skillful in teaching in order to benefit and spiritualy mature others in the Scriptures.

8.   not a brawler: Not ready for a blow, not a pugnacious, contentious, or quarrelsome person. "Not" means not. Contentious means argumentative. He is peaceable.

9.   no striker: He does not hit others, nor his wife, nor his children. seemingly, suitable
equitable, fair, mild, gentle

10.  gentle:  He is reasonable, listens and considers the words of others. He is equitable, fair, mild, and gentle. He is not over-powering, a bully, overbearing, stubborn, or hard.   

11. not contentious: after "gentle" comes not contentious again.
That is posturing as not to be withstood, acting as invincible, and abstaining from fighting whether it be with WORDS or ACTIONS.

12.  not greedy of money: He is free from the love of money, and not given to deals and scams.

13.  one that rules well his own house: He manages over, superintends, presides over, provides for, and is a protector or guardian

14.  children in subjection with all gravity: His (not adult) children  are under control, obedient, in subjection, submissive.   With dignity: the characteristic of a thing or person which entitles to reverence and respect, dignity, majesty, sanctity,honour, purity.

15.  not a novice: He is not newly planted, a new convert, or neophyte (one who has recently become a Christian. -No matter how gifted they are, sincere, or giving of financial support.

16.  Lest he be puffed up. An imature overseer will try to meet his ego needs through the church. he will imagine himself to be above others, he will think those who disagree are going over his head, he will feel threatened easily.  He will see himself as being something he is not and entitled to things by reason of his position or title.

17. having a good testimony from outsiders: His bills are paid, his word is known to be good, he has a good name and reputation for honesty.

In Titus 1:

18. blameless:   He cannot be called into account, un-reproveable, un-accused, blameless. What if he sins? If he is walking in repentance and forgiveness, he is blameless.  Except from the devil.

19.  husband of one wife:  He is once married unless widowed, and did not divorce for any cause other than adultery by his ex-wife.

20.  children that believe and are not riotous:  His children believe in the Lord and are not those that cannot be subjected to control, disobedient, unruly. His children are not in rebellion.

21.  not self-willed:   He is not self-pleasing, self-willed, arrogant.

22.  not quickly angry:   He is not prone to anger, irascible, hot-headed, fiery, hot tempered. 

23.  not given to wine:   He is not a drunkard, given to wine, or drunken.

24.  no striker:   Not ready for a blow, not a pugnacious, contentious, or quarrelsome person. "Not" means not. Contentious means argumentative. He is peacable.

25.  not greedy of lucre:   He is free from the love of gain, desire for wealth and substance, eager for base gain, or greedy for money.   

26.  given to hospitality:   He is hospitable and generous to guests.

27.  a lover of good,   He is of a sound mind, sane, in one's senses,
curbing one's desires and impulses, self-controlled, temperate. 

28. sober-minded: He is safe (sound) in mind, that is, self controlled (moderate as to opinion or passion): - discreet, sober, temperate.

29.  just: In a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
innocent, faultless, guiltless

30. holy: undefiled by sin, free from wickedness, religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.

30.self-controlled: strong, robust, having power over, possessed of (a thing) mastering, controlling, curbing, restraining, controlling one's self, temperate. He can control his apetite.

31. holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching:  He cleaves hard to the Word, the sayings of God, not just in head knowledge, but in action. He speaks as an oracle of God.

32. able to exhort in the sound doctrine:  To refute, comfort, establish, correct, reprove, to console, to encourage and strengthen by consolation, to comfort

In 1Peter 5:1
"The elders among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder",  the elders are to:

33. tend the flock: to feed, to tend a flock, to rule, govern, shepherd
of rulers (overseers)
to furnish pasture for food
to nourish
to cherish one's body, to serve the body
to supply the requisites for the soul's need

34. exercising the oversight:
to look upon, inspect, oversee, look after, take care of the church which rested upon the elders, to look carefully after, beware in regard to protect 

35. not by constraint: not to shepherd and tend by using compulsion or force of title or position. (carnal authority)

36. willingly: of one's own accord, voluntarily. -not as a hireling, but as a volunteer.

37. according to the will of God. As a man sent from God, according to and from the Will of God, not by men or a Bible College Certificate.

38. nor yet for filthy lucre. To do so NOT for gain, i.e. money. How plain that is. No tithes or salary

39. of a ready mind. eagerness, willingly. Ready to help, work, and of the faith, fully persuaded.

40. neither as lording it. Not as to lord against, that is, control,subjugate: - exercise dominion over (lordship), be lord over, overcome.

41. ensamples to the flock an example to be imitated, of men worthy of imitation.

Can you imagine the typical church reading these scriptures from the pulpit?
Deacons were not the titled, name tagged folks with offering plates in the original church.
They were more typically the hosts of the people who met in their homes and they were servants to the church. 

Do you want to see a deacon's role model?  You have the church selecting seven of them in Acts 6, one of whom was Stephen.

"seven men of good report, full of the Spirit and of wisdom",
And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus a proselyte of Antioch;
And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.

Now there's some real deacons, full of FAITH and the Holy Ghost.   

In Summary: we have given the direct instructions and meanings from the scriptures for those holding "positions" in the church. It is very convicting to realize how far our old churches had departed from God's Word on this. Do you realize a pastor is not above correction? Pastors were only one ministry among God's people, they were not singled out as the head of the church.  

What is presented here should make it obvious that the church structure around us is hopelessly departed from the Word of God. It is as it was at the time of Christ when Jesus called His sheep out from the sheepfolds of the false shepherds.. 

Does this list sound like what any elders do that you know?
This is not a life of managing, giving orders, adjusting the thermostat, making announcements, governing as a  CEO.

If we set aside the traditions and look just at scripture, we can see an elder as a vigilant, self-sacrificing, humble, giving, working servant of the flock.
He might be an apostle, he might be a prophet, he might be a teacher, he might be a pastor.
He may be a matured saint in life and spiritual experience.

These older ones could recognize a wolf even when it looked like another shepherd.
These older ones knew how to love, to care for and to feed God's sheep.
 It was not a job for the power-hungry or those seeking position or special privileges.
It was not a call to showcase our name, knowledge, or personality.
It is not a call for those who crave the pre-eminence in an assembly.

The church at Ephesus Paul spoke to in Acts 20, was overseen by elders, not one man.
 The pre-eminent pastors and Nicolaitanes Paul warned about would come later.
He called them "wolves", they would do the very things Paul told them not to do.
If the church did not follow the scriptures, a wolf could come right in and explain why the scriptural qualifications did not mean what they said.
 It happens every day.